[00:00:00] Christine: Hey friends. Welcome back to the milspouse mastermind show. Over the last of the years, the ways in which service members and military spouses and their families connect through deployments has drastically changed during my first deployment. As a military girlfriend. I remember getting to talk to my now husband, uh, about 15 years.

[00:00:21] Once a week and as internet connectivity has increased, families are able to stay connected a lot more frequently, but what does this actually mean for military members, for their families and for the way that we actually engage in. John Spencer has written a new book that explores this very topic. It’s called connected soldiers, life leadership and social connections in modern war.

[00:00:53] John is the chair of urban warfare studies at the modern war Institute at west point, the host of the urban warfare project podcast and a military spouse. So in today’s episode, I talk with John about deployment, both from the active duty perspective and from the military spouse perspective. We talk about why connectivity matters, why we need each other ways to stay connected with your spouse and who really has the toughest job during a deployment.

[00:01:26] We also talk about John’s life after the military and his journey of leaning into his passions, finding a unique niche and making the most of the opportunities available. I think you’re going to find a lot of value in today’s episode. So let’s dive into the shell.

[00:02:36] Well, I am so excited to have John Spencer on the show today. John has written a new book called connected soldiers, life leadership and social connections in modern war. John, you have the distinction of being the first male guest on our show. So congratulations. Would you introduce yourself and tell everybody a little bit about who you are and what you do?

[00:03:00] John: Sure. So my, uh, that’s such an honor, by the way. Uh, my name is John Spencer. Um, I’m both a retired army major. I started 25 years in the U S. I’m straight out of high school as a private and work my way up in enlisted and officer ranks. Um, and I was a dual military family. I retired in 2018. So now I’m a military spouse and my wife is, um, the sole military person and we have three kids, 10, eight, and six.

[00:03:31] And she’s our wonder woman, our superwoman, uh, we support. Um, I still work actually with the military and have a podcast show myself and, um, really enjoy being able to be that military spouse, but also support her and continue to work. Like I know lots of military spouses do, and I wrote a book and I’m really excited about, um, talking about what, what I poured my heart into that book.

[00:03:58] Christine: For sure. So tell us a little bit before we get into that, what is your podcast about?

[00:04:02] John: So, yeah, I’m actually, I, me and my wife were both teaching at west point. Um, during my last assignment, she was teaching psychology. Actually, she has a degree in child psychology, so she can tell me how much I’m messing up my kids and things I do sometimes.

[00:04:18] Uh, and I was teaching in, uh, in the military. Um, before I left the military, I started focusing on studying urban warfare. So now I am still the chair of urban warfare studies at the modern war Institute. And I know it’s a mouthful, um, with the United States military academy. So I, I’m almost like a research professor and that’s what I do.

[00:04:38] So I, I just studied urban operations and combat in cities. And really lately I’ve been really busy, unfortunately, because of what’s going on in Ukraine. So I’ve, I’ve been doing a lot of work and a lot of actually news and CNN and things like that. Um, explaining what we’re seeing, unfortunately, um, in Ukraine when Russia is in their invasion,

[00:05:01] Christine: speak a little bit more about that.

[00:05:03] What, what are you learning? What are you observing?

[00:05:06] John: Sure. So as soon as the actually, uh, interesting, um, how things happen right, right place, right time. As you know, even with the military, you never know what’s what next year will look like. Um, when the war happened, I was working on urban warfare. Um, and I saw what was happening with Russia, invading the country and it needed to take the capital city.

[00:05:26] So I actually got on social media and started tweeting about the war. And, and really, because this war was a little different because they were asking their civilians to resist. I mean, we saw pictures of grandmothers with AK 40 sevens and, you know, people that we just don’t want to see you having a fight, but they were fighting for their survival.

[00:05:44] So I started tweeting based on my own research. I’m like, look, if I was in a city and I needed to defend it. Um, and some of those tweaks went viral, like over 20 million views and, and, uh, I started getting requests for information and I even put together a little. A little mini manual for the urban defender that was didn’t share by the Ukrainian government out to their people.

[00:06:06] I’m so humbled by it. But then of course it got me the CNN requests and the MSNBC request as you, Ukraine was fighting for their survival and in, uh, in their civilians, everyone was helping and it’s actually surprising what people don’t know. Warfare, but it shouldn’t be, but it was a little bit surprising.

[00:06:28] I was actually amazed at the, the attention that some little pieces of information I was giving out, not based on being a professor at west point or anything, but a matter of fact, I got told to not say that. Uh, but just as a American citizen who served in the military, like, Hey, look, if I was. I wouldn’t be standing out in the open.

[00:06:47] Right? Cause they can see you from above and, and things like that. So Russia tried to take the capital city, which is what you have to do when you’re invading the country. You think about Afghanistan for us in 2001, you had to get to Kabul, uh, Iraq, which I was a part of the invasion as a platoon leader in 2003 week, you had to take Baghdad.

[00:07:06] It’s. If you’re going to take a country, you’ve got to take the political seat of the government and switch it out. If that’s what you’re doing. So we saw Russia do that and it failed thankfully and Ukrainian government or the military and the people helping push back, uh, Russia. And now Russia’s decided on trying to take Eastern DeMoss and that’s where we are.

[00:07:25] As we were speaking, Russia basically completely failed in the first two months of the war. And now they’re trying a feeble attempt to grab the east. So I’ll be on CNN international tonight talking about how I think that Russia is going to fail even.

[00:07:41] Christine: That’s so interesting because when you just start doing things that are on your heart, what your passions are, and you just never know right.

[00:07:49] Time, right place. What doors open up. So talk about your interest in urban warfare. How did. Get into that niche.

[00:07:58] John: Yeah, that’s a great question actually. One, I started getting into writing, which I’m have a huge passion for, um, really at the end of my military career. Cause nobody really told me that it wasn’t part of my mentorship as just wasn’t part of my job.

[00:08:12] I was constantly doing and trying to do the job and really reflection and writing. Wasn’t something. So when I was at west point, I started writing, um, and I wrote a piece about my experiences in Iraq. I of twice, I actually met my wife in my second deployment in Iraq. And I wrote an article about the use of concrete in the Iraq war as we use concrete walls, especially in the urban areas.

[00:08:37] Well that you respond to the moment. So I wrote that article, a very short article and it went, and it was another viral. So it got shared by like national geographic education. Like all these people that didn’t know for the, you know, 11 years or so, or eight years that we were in Iraq, mostly you putting up concrete walls, especially making gated communities around people that you’re trying to protect are around markets.

[00:09:00] So they couldn’t blow them up for some reason, which is kind of our military where we really don’t know what people don’t know, but the world did not know that we put up millions and millions and millions of concrete walls. And that’s how we. Uh, chief security. So that started the urban, really the urban bug.

[00:09:18] Uh, and then the fact that there was nobody doing it, right? So it was just like in business, you find a market and all of a sudden you find that, whoa, I’m, I’m the only person in this field. Uh, and then you work hard to, to, to rise up in that field. So I became really, within a couple of years now, I’ve been doing it for almost 10 years.

[00:09:37] Like what. Biggest urban warfare scholars, as in somebody who does research in it, not just having an experienced because there’s really not that many people in the world.

[00:09:46] Christine: And that’s such a great example of just really figuring out, Hey, where do I see a problem? And where do I see holes? And like, nobody’s focusing on this and how can I be a part of addressing that and being a part of the solution.

[00:10:01] So talk about the inspiration for your book.

[00:10:04] John: Yeah. So it really goes back to that moment where I was trying to write. So I was. Uh, I was in a place where I was writing a lot and, and, and found the benefits of reflection and almost a therapy that it gave me like that somebody was listening to a story I had and they were interested in it.

[00:10:24] So in 2015, I wrote a, uh, an article about how I thought social media was changing. The things that we did as soldiers while we’re in. That the stories of like band of brothers and you, these great movies that talk about the bonds that are formed with soldiers while they’re fighting in combat. Um, it’s still true, but I had observed something in 2008 while I was a company commander that man they’re spending a lot of time online, which is a good thing, but then they were also not spending that much time together.

[00:10:54] And there was a moment where, um, actually we were on, uh, unfortunately one of my platoons was on a patrol and in a bomb, missed them and killed an Iraqi. Very traumatic to all of us to see that. Um, as you can imagine in that night, I went to go find the soldiers who were seeing that event and will help respond to it.

[00:11:14] And, um, and I couldn’t find them. They’re all in the internet cafes, talking to their families about what they had saw, which is both a good, in a bad thing. But, um, so I wrote an article about it and submitted it to the New York times. On a whim. Uh, and, and basically I got an op-ed in the New York times, which I didn’t know at the time it was like winning the lottery.

[00:11:35] Um, and I’ve since wrote a hundred articles toward and given them, and they’ve all been no, but that one article, uh, is called the band of tweeters in 2015 was about how so I thought social. Um, in this instant connection in the, basically the, the blurring of the lines, there is no more disconnect between the soldier when he goes off the war and the family, how it was, had both positives and negatives.

[00:12:00] And that drove me. Cause I got two book offers after that. That’s what happens when you write a New York times op ed, you get book offers, you get sometimes movie offers and things like that. So I had two giant book offers. Unfortunately at that moment, I didn’t know how to write long. I was just getting into writing articles.

[00:12:17] So I know they wanted a 5,000 word book proposal in a month and I just couldn’t do it. Um, so I started that started the idea of the book, and I knew I wanted to write about it. This is what my book contains, uh, about my 2003 deployment as a, uh, as a platoon leader, jumping into combat, um, with an airborne unit in, in the invasion.

[00:12:37] And there was complete disconnected. We literally say goodbye. Our, our, our wives or husbands or whoever. And then it was like three months before he made a phone call. And then even then it was very sporadic. And then I compared that to my 2008 experience where, you know, Facebook, every night phone calls, um, the problems of home, migrating to the soldiers and the soldiers, what they seen in combat, migrating home.

[00:13:04] Um, and then I wrote those two parts of the book. Really sat on it for a while. Um, and it wasn’t until 2018 when my, my wife’s deployed to Kuwait and then she was in Afghanistan, Iraq, and I was at home. So I was on the other end of that with our three kids at the time were seven, five and three as the military spouse with my partner, um, deployed.

[00:13:30] And basically, you know what that was, it was the last. Experience I’d really needed to, I think, to write this book about how I think connectivity has changed the combat experience for both good and bad reasons. So in my book, I talk about the transition to this moment and then the positives and potential negatives, if not washed by bias.

[00:13:54] Christine: Would you talk a little bit just about the stepping into the role of the spouse and, and how it was different from being the active duty member out there on deployment?

[00:14:05] John: Yeah, so I, I write about it in the book and I try to be as, I mean, it’s a vulnerable book, to be honest. And I, I put all, I’m sure I made mistakes.

[00:14:13] Um, I thought I was ready, but you know, you really never can be ready. And we didn’t, my wife is amazing and she tried to do everything to prepare me. Um, everything from teaching me how to make meals, I don’t know how to make or things that we share. We try to share a lot. Um, and, and, and approach is teamwork.

[00:14:34] So she did everything she could from trying to prepare me in the kids, but some things you just can’t prepare for, but I was trying to take it out on as almost like a military mission, like how I’m going to have a schedule. That’s going to be our saving grace, uh, you know, with young kids, even that doesn’t work out very well sometimes.

[00:14:52] Um, and I tried to be flexible. Um, but some of the stuff you just can’t be prepared for about them dealing with the experience. Um, you know, I tried actually to be empathetic to her, my, my, my wife was gone, trying to think that I understood what she was going through on her end, even though both times I was deployed, I was a single guy.

[00:15:14] So there’s a lot of reflection. There are two on the mistakes I made as a commander. And, uh, as a leader in the army, not thinking through what the soldiers going through with their family back home. So I tried to hold things back from her. She, she told me really quickly that, that she didn’t want that. Uh, she wanted the good, bad and ugly of the daily, um, events of home.

[00:15:34] Um, so she actually had to coach me, even, I’m trying to let her be the soldier. I do your mission. I’ll take care of this. And that’s kind of the way I wanted it. That’s not what she wanted. She wanted to be a part of the everyday. And so when I stepped into the role as the home provider, She was still trying to help me, even though I’m in, I’m trying to help her as no one thinking that I I’ve been through that.

[00:16:00] I know it she’s only been through one deployment. I’ve been through two. Uh, and I got, I got schooled and the things went bad. Of course, with emotionally dealing with her being gone, even to myself, I thought I would be ready for that. And it hit me like a ton of bricks, um, more than I thought it ever would.

[00:16:18] And then. Just like a rollercoaster. But when we were a team the whole time, I found things that I needed here that as stepping into the role as a spouse, I’d never thought I would need, um, other people, so community. So mine was my, my gym. So I belong to a CrossFit gym, even though I, I thought it was really faddish when I was in the military, but I needed that group of people to, just to talk to every day.

[00:16:42] Um, and we didn’t do an exercise for an hour together, but I was taking everything I could have. 10 minutes before the class and 10 minutes after the class, I’m just getting some type of adult relation your understanding of the challenges, because there were plenty of other spouses in my class that are full-time work and full-time spouse.

[00:17:03] Um, so those were all kinds of things that I could never have foreseen being the soldier. You know, I’m going off of do my thing and, you know, try to stay in involved with the home front.

[00:17:15] Christine: So I’m curious. Aspect. Did you think was harder being the one on the front lines or staying home and taking care of the family?

[00:17:22] John: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. No way. It’s always a hundred percent the person staying home from every sickness to every question where there is no answer to my three-year-old like mommy’s car, mommy’s home. My mom’s not home for another eight months and not being able to. Yeah. Th th there, when I was deployed, you know, the mission was always clear that what needs to be done was always pretty straightforward, even though the, you know, the, the enemies and things like that.

[00:17:49] Oh man, it’s a thousand times harder being the personnel.

[00:17:54] Christine: You have one thing to focus on when you’re deployed versus everything. When you’re trying to be both parents.

[00:18:01] John: Oh my gosh, the unknown, the unknown. Right? So we practice a lot as a soldier about controlling even the unknown and being prepared for it.

[00:18:10] When you were to stay at home, there’s so many unknowns that hit you. In a day that you just can’t be prayerful. You have to be prepared for the new everything.

[00:18:18] Christine: That’s true. And, and we don’t get the same type of training if you are the spouse that is taking care of the Homefront, you’re just kind of, you know, it’s, it’s like doing anything with the military life for the first time.

[00:18:31] PCS the first going through a deployment, you don’t know what you don’t know until you’ve been through it and you walked through it. And, and the more that you do that, the more you build up those muscles. Um, and I think it was very interesting, you know, I think when we talk about how much we communicate with our spouse, that is serving, that is on that deployment.

[00:18:55] Some people want to be really informed. And sometimes the spouse staying back is like, yes, tell me everything. And sometimes they’re like, don’t tell me what, uh, only what I need to know. Right. So it kind of just depends on learning your person and how much information they want or don’t want to hear.

[00:19:13] Would you talk a little bit about this concept of connectivity and, and what were some of your big takeaways?

[00:19:24] John: As I saw the transition of immediate connection from, from the soldier to home, even when they’re trying to control it. I mean, soldiers yearn to talk to home. Um, and so while I was deployed, it became. No, it was a big part of morale. Right? So we even on the, in the soldiers, if something happened and one time we had our base kind of blown up and the command, leadership’s like, you know, get the internet back up.

[00:19:49] It’s, it’s really important to the soldiers to be able to talk to home and that’s kind of natural, but then, uh, there was this constant tug of, yes, I understand that. But we have to, we have to do these things together. Um, so, but then your messages started coming in as well. So it, it, it was so day-to-day on the way that the connections between home and the, the Battlefront or the deployed soldier, you know, it helped in keeping morale ho high, trying to, you’re dealing with some of the homesickness, um, sharing the home experiences while deployed.

[00:20:24] But also, I don’t think I was ready as a, even as a deployed soldier, dealing with other people’s. Which is what leaders do, right. We deal with our soldiers problems and help them in any way we can. But some of the stuff that was just so immediate, like my girlfriend is overdosing on drugs and I can’t get to her, um, that I never thought that it’s kind of like when we’re home.

[00:20:48] Right. So just deal with a lots of life problems. I just wasn’t used to now this connectivity, bringing it all together, where. That person who is going outside the wire now is thinking about every about that day is problems at that moment. And it’s really hard to get them focused back on. Okay. Like you said, do this job, this one thing now.

[00:21:09] Um, and we’ll, we’ll help you deal with the home as soon as we get back. Um, and then as I became the, the person at home, I also didn’t understand how that connection now that. It’s 24 7. I could, we FaceTime with my wife almost every night, unless she was just not, not possible. Um, and I saw a transition as, as a family where you really wanted it and they all fought for time.

[00:21:35] And as they dealt with the social, emotional issues of, of being away from your family member, um, they started that transpired to show in the technology where you hand them the iPad. And like you talk to mom. No, I don’t want. Uh, and how hard my thoughts are, how heartbreaking that would be to me, if my, you know, who they’re living with Alma.

[00:21:57] And I think that was my why my wife’s fear in what she hoped technology would help do is not, don’t forget me. You don’t, don’t create this new, normal without me, um, to the point. And there’s one moment that really, and it’s in the book and it really shook me. You know, my, my wife’s huge on family traditions.

[00:22:14] I mean, she has created so many traditions for our families, uh, and it’s, I didn’t have that as a child. So it’s important to use from, you know, getting close on the Easter bunny brings you both candy and clothes. You know, things like that, that I I’d never got. So I, you as a person staying home, that basically that’s all on me now from wrapping presents to making sure that family traditions hold, but for Christmas morning, my wife.

[00:22:38] An iPad set up in a chair with she, and she woke up at like two in the morning, so she could be there. I just never thought that I would imagine that day of having like a futuristic chair with mom’s face there and she’s deployed, but every kid is basically opening a present from Santa and bringing up the mom and say, look, look, this is what Santa brought to me.

[00:22:57] So it felt really weird. But then also understanding that it basically crushed my wife missing that moment. So when she hung up, she had a real hard time and she, she gets on me for talking about it in the book. Um, but it really questioned a missed that moment. And I don’t know if the technology would have allowed more of a compartmentalizing, you know, course it’d be sad, but to both be in the moment, but not be there as well.

[00:23:25] And I’m, I’m a pretty firm believer. Like we know that the virtual health right. In COVID even health teaches that, but there’s some things you just can’t. Replaced virtually without with, you know, with the physical, there’s some physiological benefits of physical touch, your presence and things like that, that sometimes, and what this book is my own exploration of that on things that we have to keep doing as a, as a group in, in the soldiers and as a family, even home, um, where the virtual helps.

[00:24:00] Of course it does. Communication is number one in anything. Relationship doesn’t matter what it is, but how to preserve the physical that we all need. And that moment about Christmas morning, really again, shook me, but also it was like a realization of the future of.

[00:24:16] Christine: For sure. And I think this is one thing that COVID has taught us a lot is that being in physical proximity with people is just not the same as trying to do everything virtual.

[00:24:28] There is so much benefit. And then, you know, there’s so many more jobs that have been open to military spouses just because of virtual employment and, you know, it’s great, you know, us being overseas and being able to connect on video. Extended family, but it’s not the same as physically being in the room with somebody at the same time.

[00:24:50] I think back to like the first deployment when my husband and I were dating and we got like a 15 minute phone call every week. And just how far we’ve come since then. Um, so what are some of the ways that you’ve seen to help mitigate some of the, um, downsides of this connected.

[00:25:12] John: Yeah. So one, you know, it really, you know, this w w when you’re deployed, it makes you appreciate so many things that you just sometimes forget to appreciate one aspect of the, that that reminds me of the, like, I’m not the old guy, like, oh, you know, it never be the same.

[00:25:28] And then we need to go back to your take, take it away from them, know whatever it is, the world has changed. Everything has changed. Um, but. Something that I discovered during art, this last appointment, this what you can call a connected deployment. Um, the physical, um, reaction that our children had to something in the mail when they got something that mom wrote with their own hand, it meant more than daily communication through FaceTime.

[00:25:57] And it almost speaks to the. The physical aspect of our, our social nature. Right? So the, the children teach you a lot of it. They don’t know, like I said, sometimes they’re like, oh, I don’t want to talk to her. Uh, they wanted that physical piece of paper. So writing letters, which there has been a lot of research on because of electronic communication, the way we talk to each other change.

[00:26:21] In more, right. So he used to write these long letters, trying to explain to our spouses and our families, what we’re seeing with the immediacy of communication that th you know, the actual studies have actually shown that the, what is actually being said has changed. It’s shorter. It’s less explanatory.

[00:26:37] It’s more like, Hey, how are you? Um, it’s more, um, it’s different. So I learned that that aspect of actually writing something down or drawing pictures, I used to send you a box up, you know, all the school stuff, you know, what they do. Uh, and I would put it in a box like every three or four weeks and send it to her.

[00:26:55] And I know it meant something to her to, to hold something physical. So that, that was a big aspect of it. Um, and then as a soldier, it was, it was kind of almost the opposite, right? So it wasn’t is that there are moments when. Like that moment with the, the, the Iraqi child that died where you need to come together as a group and talk about it in person.

[00:27:19] Um, and then later go to your, your, your cushy or social support networks, your, your wife, your loved ones. And if you want to talk about it, because you’re, you’re trying to cope with it, right? So the physical presence is important on both sides. So I don’t know before writing the book, I really understood that.

[00:27:35] So even after hanging up with mom, um, having a conversation with the kids. You’re still even having to re have more conversations about what does it mean that mom’s gone and how much longer till she comes back. And how do you feel about that? It’s almost almost identical to the experiences that I had in 2003, as soldiers experiencing some stress.

[00:27:56] This is all about, you know, military spouse or military families is dealing with the different stressors and there can be so many, um, but we figure ways and there’s things that we can do. So when there’s a soldiers deploy, Experienced combat there they come together and it’s a part of the coping to talk to each other about it.

[00:28:12] Um, so it’s almost like on both sides, the solutions are not new. They’re old. It’s just not forgetting that we still need those. We still need to talk to somebody else that we think can empathize or sympathize, uh, for soldiers. It’s another soldier who just experienced the same thing with them and talking about it.

[00:28:32] Yeah, that really messed me up. Uh, and, and that’s okay. So for me as my kids and I messed this up to be clear for, for a while, till I understood like, um, what the right questions were to ask the kids, you can, they were presenting problems in different ways. Each kid was different. Um, so their personalities are different.

[00:28:52] So they were presenting kind of their social, emotional challenges in different ways. So I had to figure out how to know both be present, uh, It’s basically drive them to talk about what they were thinking. I wouldn’t tell them to say like, feeling, uh, which is, that’s hard to say, like, how do you feel, but to talk it out almost so it’s, it’s a solution that’s always been there, but sometimes while we’re deployed as soldiers, we forget that that’s was, is almost the linchpin of surviving what they have to do in combat.

[00:29:23] And now as a family member, I now know, it’s, it’s, it’s almost the same on this side. They have it’s about communication and communicating through this stressors, which can be daily, like, you know, there’s great days. And then your a really bad days. And both of them, we should be talking about them. Uh, what I call breaking bread.

[00:29:43] So we have a, we’ve always had a tradition in our family that we eat dinner together. Um, and if it’s, if something happens, of course, in the military job, and that is impossible, but. It’s electronic free. It’s no book frees, you know, there’ll be nothing else on the table and we just have dinner. Which is also ancient to, to, to soldiers and fighting.

[00:30:03] They sit around the campfire and eat together. It actually has emotional social benefits, what we call breaking bread together.

[00:30:13] Christine: So what would you suggest. You know, if you have, if you were the, in the deployed unit and they’re spending so much time communicating with people back home, how are they building that connectivity with each other?

[00:30:28] Like, did you, do you have specific recommendations for how you’re building that physical connectivity with people? Okay.

[00:30:38] John: Yeah, absolutely. We call it bonding. So it’s called cohesion and I kind of break that part in the first part of the book. Like, what is this magic sauce that we talk about is the band of brothers effect is what I call it.

[00:30:47] Um, we in the military know that if you do hard training and hard exercises, Uh, or you’re in a firefight together or spirits on a massive amount of stresses together. It bonds you to the other person. Um, it, um, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s called shared hardship. And we know that that w that, that, so that hard training, the exercising together, things like that is all about this.

[00:31:10] You know, how hard you can, you make it, and then you experience it together. It’s called shared hardship. So that’s always been known, but. And another thing has been studied is that just mindless hours together in boredom talking to each other about your families, your likes, your dislikes, um, builds as strong as bonds as does the shared hardship.

[00:31:32] So that’s, you know, everything from a coffee club to a book club, it’s bonding, actually it what’s happening. So for the soldiers, it’s, you have to create those models. So, is it a technology free conversation after going outside and doing your job? You know, for me, I’m an old efficient as it’s going out of the wire doing a patrol, but you lots of jobs in the military.

[00:31:53] Um, it’s, it’s designing those hours of time together. And one of the recommendations were like today’s army would be when they come back from a patrol, we have things that we do. Like we take care of our vehicles. We take care of our weapons. I think, and you used to sit around the campfire. Now you go by, you go to your room and maybe get on your inner, your computer.

[00:32:16] You have to, you, you honestly do have to force that moment of, um, sharing together, talking together. Uh, so that’s, that’s an aspect. I think that sometimes people will start to forget about. Um, but that is more important in binding people than the shared hardship in, in my, in research. Really. So

[00:32:35] Christine: I’m curious if you took that concept of the boredom, the connectivity, what would be your idea for military spouses? For those who are holding down the home front? What, what ways could we better physically connect with others? When our loved one is deployed.

[00:32:53] John: Yeah. So there’s, you know, that there’s so many programs that the military tries to do this right? With our, we have the family readiness groups, the coffee clubs, the book clubs.

[00:33:02] I’m such a huge fan because I think there’s a physiological benefit to exercising together. Um, I, I, and that was my saving grace there. And disappointment one is really easy to, to get so busy that you, you basically, we’re more connected today than we’ve ever been in history, but we’re also more like, Because we, again, we think that these connections are in place of social support networks, and they’re not, you still need to get together regularly daily, even.

[00:33:28] Um, so based on wherever situation that we are in, or you are in, it’s finding a group and literally historically it needs to be, uh, more than five people together every day. Doing something together. Um, whether that’s walking the dogs together, meeting at a park and doing a play date together that one hour of conversation with another.

[00:33:55] Is human nature. It is part of our, um, from cavemen till now it is needed in to be healthy. It really is. But I know from owning my own is very like I’m driving on, I’m picking the kids up, I’m gonna do this. I’m gonna do dinner. I’m gonna put them to bed and then we’re gonna repeat them all morning. Uh, like I just don’t have time for.

[00:34:15] Um, so the scheduling it every day for my, my CrossFit workout had nothing to do with the workout. It was literally, that’s an hour of bonding time with other adults. So there’s so many different forms of that in the military tries to help with that. But. It could be, you know, individually created almost

[00:34:35] Christine: For sure. And I, I love, because this is what we talk about. One of the main foundational components of the show is, is this idea that we are better together, and we need each other. Now I’m curious where the idea of five or more people came from, was that a research study or how did that idea come up?

[00:34:54] John: Yeah. There’s some research to it. There’s some research to, um, it’s a little bit in the book, but it’s a proximity to there’s  a maximum number to that too. So there’s a maximum number about 50 that you can know everybody in the group. So it’s really fascinating in some research, some people walks there is as longitudinally studied, but yeah, it’s from.

[00:35:18] From basically psychology, psychological research that a group of five or more, or are more connected than, and this is outside of moments where they call it a family group. Right. So of course, you’re going to be bonded to your brother and sister, mother, brother. Um, but when you’re talking about a group of friends and things like that, uh, It’s it’s five and then it maxes out around 50, which is really weird.

[00:35:41] Cause that’s for us around and an army company is about 40 to 50 personnel. So the numbers really were, but yeah, it’s, there’s some research in there.

[00:35:51] Christine: Would you talk for a minute just about this process of writing your book? You, you said you had to learn how to write long form content. Can you talk about just that journey of learning to write and then putting this book together?

[00:36:07] John: Yeah, it was, it was definitely. Um, so I learned how to write short articles of 800 words first, which some people say that’s harder than writing longer. Right. If I had time I’d write, I would have written you something shorter from mark Twain. Um, so I had to Google how to write a book, honestly, and I had to watch YouTube videos about how to, how to structure a book.

[00:36:28] And there’s actually a way there’s a w pattern of ups and downs. Uh, I tried to do a lot of research about writing a book specifically, cause I knew exactly what I wanted to do. Right. And there’s, there’s different forms of law informed writing. And then I had to, um, and there’s many ways to do this, take like stickies and put together individual stories that met my overall themes.

[00:36:51] I really went to about it really systematically and it was still a challenge to be honest. Um, so were you write a long book or a long. Project by writing a bunch of small ones and I took that to heart. So I wrote, you know, I, once I, I, I wrote out each chapter that would fit to the overall theme of this connected world that helped narrow it down a lot, but it still took me three years.

[00:37:17] To be honest, I put it all together, um, to where I was, you know, I thought it was good enough to show somebody, um, and be honest, I had to, I took a lot of criticism and to this day I still did. It was a challenge. Once I wrote what I wanted to write, because I wanted to just, I wanted to write my book. I didn’t want to write a book that I thought that somebody else wanted to read.

[00:37:35] I, I wanted her to tell the story I did, and I actually did it differently than even some of the research or to the guidance gave, right. Because my books about three different time periods, right. It’s 2003, 2008, 2018, because I wanted to show the differences in and tell it through a memoir. That didn’t that got probably a hundred nos out of the one.

[00:37:55] Yes. But that’s believing in what you’re doing. So if someone believes in what they want to do that, um, that had to have the courage to take, not take no for an answer and keep doing it. Um, you have to be open to feedback. And I was, and I saw it and I wrote an article about why I write to, um, nothing I ever published had I not shown somebody else first because that feedback is what we all need.

[00:38:19] So even in my book, I got four different people to give me feedback and lots of changes and everything. So there’s a difference between taking feedback and then not taking no. Um, so I wrote a bunch of short chapters that become a book. Um, and then sometimes you’ve got to move things around to eventually it became what it is.

[00:38:39] And then it goes, I had to get a book agent, which has its own channel. Um, and then the book agent had to help me find it, uh, a publisher. Uh, so I’ve learned so much about the process. Um, and like, like any other thing, once you learn it, it’s a lot easier. Right? So each step though, I, we live in this connected where, where you can build a house by going to YouTube.

[00:39:01] So I literally went to YouTube on how to write a book, and then I went to YouTube on how to find a book agent. Uh, so we actually live in where it’s very powerful, right?

[00:39:13] Christine: And you can do whatever it is that’s on your heart. It’s open to you. Now, what would you say you learned about yourself through this whole process?

[00:39:24] John: So I learned the law because I had never, I had been in the military for 20 plus years. I had never looked back and I was always busy on doing, like, doing whatever it was in that day, that month or that job. So I learned a lot to include mistakes. I made. By taking time to do reflection. And some people had told me growing up that that was important, right.

[00:39:47] Even journaling, uh, which is important. Right. Um, I just never did. So once I decided to try to do this, I learned a lot, even trying to remember things that had happened, um, which has its own thing. If you don’t write it down, then it’s really hard to remember it. I learned a lot in reflection about where a lot of moments where I was really struggling and maybe.

[00:40:12] Paused and sought help. And I didn’t because I had grown up to not the seeking help was bad, but to be honest, it wasn’t part of the identity I had had at the moment. And I talk about that in the book a lot where I, you know, I had what’s called, um, imposter syndrome. I didn’t think I sh I was the guy for that job.

[00:40:33] I didn’t know what I was doing. And in reflection, the writing of the book I’ve learned like that. And some, even one of the feedbacks I got from one of my reviewers was this is a lot about you. Um, and you being vulnerable. Uh, so I learned that, you know, this big, strong guy was, as I looked even look back in, maybe I didn’t even believe it.

[00:40:55] I was vulnerable and scared a lot of the time.

[00:40:59] Christine: Now you have this book that has finally made it after all these years it’s coming out. What does that feel like?

[00:41:05] John: Uh, it’s, it’s surreal to be honest. And it faced so many challenges, especially with COVID like slammed every market. Like we ran out on paper or you got to wait another year, you ran out of paper.

[00:41:17] Christine: That’s something you don’t think is going to happen.

[00:41:18] John: But it happened and it’s it’s so, it’s so. Flip sides of the coin. It’s so relieving to have it done, but it’s so still to this day, even though it’s, you know, it’s lots of people have read it and, and did reviews for it. I still have this amazing sense of vulnerability on how the world is going to receive the story, because you know, some people are gonna like, you fear that somebody is going to judge you, but it, it, it’s a very vulnerable memoir.

[00:41:51] Uh, so I’m really anxious. To get the response and you, you, you, you love when people tell it’s great. Um, but it’s still, you’re putting yourself out there, so it’s sort of vulnerable, but it’s such an amazing feeling to have it done. And, and then already start to receive like, oh, this is amazing. Or reminded me of this or that.

[00:42:08] And, and that’s my hope right there is that it helps somebody else in the things that I’m saying. And to get that from even people that have reviewed it, like. It has to go through this big security review, right? Everything, a military guy, a person writes has to go through a big security view, even if they retire and the reviewer who reviewed it sent me a note going, I don’t do this often, but I just want you to know that this is, it really made me think of my own career and the challenges that I faced. And that meant a lot.

[00:42:35] Christine: For sure. I mean, it’s always, you know, anytime you’re putting yourself out there, you’re taking yourself out of your comfort zone. You’re engaging in an activity that is vulnerable sharing, sharing your heart, sharing your experience. Um, it has the potential to help other people, but.

[00:42:53] It definitely takes courage to be willing, to put yourself out there. So kudos to you for doing that. I’m excited for you to have this big accomplishment. How can our listeners connect with you and find you in all the places?

[00:43:07] John: Sure. So I have a website is John Spencer online.com where the book can be bought.

[00:43:12] You can buy an autograph version of it. Um, I’m also big on social media. So one which is funny, I wrote the book on connected soldiers, but I’m on Facebook, on John’s mentor online and really big on Twitter at Spencer guard. So those are some of the main places.

[00:43:27] Christine: Well, thank you so much. We really enjoyed this conversation and, uh, best of luck.

[00:43:34] John: Thanks so much, Christine.

[00:43:35] Christine: I hope you got a lot out of that interview. John’s book comes out July 1st. So look for it in your favorite bookstore, I will have all of those links in the show notes below, but before we go, I just want to let you know that the mil spouse mastermind clarity challenge is coming back this July.

[00:43:54] Now, what is this about a year ago? We hosted a 30-day clarity challenge inside our Facebook group every day for 30 days, I have one journal prompt, a question to get you thinking about who you are and what you want out of life. It’s called our thirties. Clarity challenge. You can answer the question in our Facebook group or use it as you journal to get greater clarity on yourself and what you really want out of life.

[00:44:23] So I just want to let you know that that is coming, that will be available. If you are not already a part of our Facebook community, you can find us by doing a search in Facebook or just by going to mil spouse mastermind.com. Forge slash community. I hope to see you in there. Continuing this conversation.

[00:44:41] May you have an amazing week living filled, fueled, and full of joy.