[00:00:00] Christine: We all want life to go smoothly. We want things to work out, but the experience of life teaches us that both good things and bad things happen. And we all over time develop a set of coping strategies to deal with the tough parts of life. And sometimes life in the military is Tough. And we have the opportunity to either lean into the heart to be able to learn the skills to recover and grow through it, or we wind up getting stuck and we’re not sure how to move forward in a healthy way.

[00:00:41] And so today on the show, we are doing a deep dive into mental health. We’re gonna talk about the ways that we deal with the tough parts of military. How we get stuck and what we can do to break free.

[00:01:49] Hey, amazing milspouse. Welcome back to the MilSpouse Mastermind Show. I am so excited. To be back with you today. Just wanted to remind you that all this month we are celebrating the two year anniversary of the MilSpouse Mastermind Show, and in celebration of our two year anniversary, I am giving away a free. One hour coaching session and access to my signature course, the MilSpouse Purpose Playbook.

[00:02:16] This course is going to help you uncover what lights you up and how you can use your skills and your story to make contribution. Without sacrificing the things that matter most to you, you’re going to get clarity on your purpose. Learn how to pursue your dreams as a military spouse while still prioritizing your wellness, having a healthy life balance so that you can ultimately.

[00:02:41] Thrive as a military spouse and you’ll walk away with your own personal purpose statement, a vision for the life. You want to create a decision-making framework to help you prioritize what matters most, and a weekly schedule that aligns with your purpose and your dreams so that you can wake up each day with clarity and confidence, feeling.

[00:03:06] Filled, fueled, and full of joy. I want to give this gift to one of you, and all you have to do to enter is to leave a show review on Apple Podcast. This is so, so important for the algorithm and it is such a breath of fresh air of encouragement to me as I seek to try. Create content that is going to help you find more peace and purpose in your life, and truly craft a life with more meaning and less overwhelm.

[00:03:45] It lights me up so much when I hear from you and I have a goal. For the podcast this year to get to a hundred show reviews by the end of the year and your leaving a show review is number one going to help me get there. Number two, it’s going to enter you into the contest. And number three, it’s going to help more military spouses find this information and really, All be better as military spouses because I truly believe that we are better together.

[00:04:17] So if you will go over to Apple Podcast, go scroll to the bottom of the MilSpouse Mastermind Show on Apple Podcast. Scroll to the bottom, you’ll see where you can leave a review. Just leave us a quick review and then let me know that you’ve left that review either by sending an email to hello milspouse.com.

[00:04:37] By taking a screenshot of it and either tagging me on social media or putting it in our free Facebook community, just let me know that you have left that review and you will be entered to win a free one-hour coaching session and my signature purpose course, the MilSpouse Purpose Playbook. All right, so like I said in the introduction, we are doing a deep dive into mental health today, and we’re talking about the tough parts of military life, and we’re going to go real deep.

[00:05:11] We’re going to talk about what. Trauma actually is how to know when a coping strategy isn’t actually serving you, and how we can support our loved ones if we see that they are struggling. Today’s conversation is with. Dustin and Kerry Brockberg, who are psychologists and experts in substance abuse and rehabilitation.

[00:05:38] They are married and prior to getting married, Dustin actually spent four years serving in the US Army, and his area of focus includes veteran related issues, grief, loss, trauma, and carry special. In the mind body connection and how that relates to better overall functioning and quality of life. They have a new book out entitled In Your Covert Mission, A Veteran’s Guide to Fighting Pain and Addiction.

[00:06:09] Dustin and Kerry, welcome to the MilSpouse Mastermind Show. Thank you for having us. Yeah, I would love for you to just spend a few minutes talking about your background and what led you to what you do. Sure. You wanna leave us off? Yeah, sure. I’ll start. So

[00:06:25] Kerry: I’m Kerry Brockburg. I am a licensed psychologist working in a hospital based setting in an outpatient basis.

[00:06:33] So meaning that I don’t work at the hospital, but. Mostly I work from home right now with after Covid, but I, I work with folks with chronic pain, spinal cord injury, brain injury, folks that experience stroke, kind of a wide range of chronic health conditions and disabilities. I got into the field because I have.

[00:06:52] Just a long history of volunteering and being I have folks in my family that identify having a disability and it’s just always been a passion of mine. And it just, chronic pain was this paved road and kind of happenstance situation for me coming out of my postdoc after school. And I. Been so grateful for the experience and just understanding how universal pain is.

[00:07:20] And it has been a great foundation for me working in a chronic pain clinic and then moving on to this hospital-based setting. So that’s a little bit of my story.

[00:07:29] Dustin: So my name is, is Dustin Brock. I’m also a licensed psychologist and I work in a substance use residential treatment center. And here in Minnesota.

[00:07:38] And I also serve as I served in the Army from 2004, 2008 as a 19 kilo, which is a tank crewman. So my running joke to folks is I was small enough to fit into a tank. So I did that for a couple years. And Justin,

[00:07:51] Christine: maybe the

[00:07:51] Kerry: joke should be a rolling joke. What do you think? Oh, oh, that’s good.

[00:07:55] Christine: That’s good. We work

[00:07:56] Kerry: on dad jokes these days. .

[00:07:59] Dustin: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s hard. It’s hard. Yeah. So, so yeah. So a big part of my identity is also identifying as a veteran which really kind of. plays a, a role in, in our, our book that we wrote together, really combining not only our lived experiences, but also our expertise in different areas.

[00:08:14] And I, we remi, by not also acknowledge, we are also recently parents of identical girl twins. And so that is just as much of a deployment in some ways, as other things feel like and kind of recently became a dad, so I, I also wanted to share that.

[00:08:26] Christine: Yeah, it’s exciting. I just applaud you for tackling two kids at one time because I know that the transition to parenthood in general can be a big transition, but when you’re taking two at a time, that’s even more so.

[00:08:39] So before we get into the book, I am curious, how did you meet and tell us a little bit about your story coming together. Yeah, yeah.

[00:08:49] Dustin: So Sereni and I met actually at the University of Wisconsin Medicine in our doctoral training, first, first class with her. I, I didn’t have the, I didn’t feel enough confidence to ask her out, but the second class we had together, I did.

[00:09:01] So that, that’s my little internal narrative to that. But yeah, so men’s school and then. A couple years later, and then it’s been, it’s been, it’s been really cool too. And again, we’ll, we’ll get into the book, but even just like writing the book as a married couple is really interesting and a whole different world of our.

[00:09:18] marriage. We never knew we had. So, which is, which is kind of a cool added piece. Christine,

[00:09:22] Christine: I, we

[00:09:22] Kerry: wrote the book while I was pregnant. It was just funny cuz we would go to Starbucks pretty much like every Saturday, Sunday for three months straight. And Dustin would be sitting there drinking his espresso coffee, getting his writing on, and I’m like, I’ll have a lemonade please.

[00:09:38] So it was a, a fun time, the just the different things we’ve been through as a couple and of course the, the backgrounds, especially Dustin’s military background and the different things we’ve already experienced together is just pretty cool. Well you

[00:09:51] Christine: kind of had an artificial deadline in writing your book.

[00:09:53] The babies are coming. Actually, it’s funny that you say

[00:09:56] Kerry: that cuz our editor, we were like, all right, so here’s the thing, the babies are supposed to come at this time. Now, mind you. There’s always unexpected. You never know what’s gonna happen. So we had to push the deadline up a a few times when we’re like, eh, it might be this time.

[00:10:11] It might be this time. Please do not contact us Now the babies are here. So it was funny.

[00:10:17] Christine: So talk a little bit about your, both psychologists, you’re both have your areas of interest. , what was that like being married to somebody that’s in the same field and then how did you go about deciding, hey, let’s create this book together?

[00:10:30] Yeah, well

[00:10:31] Kerry: I’ll speak to the same field piece and then Dustin, maybe you can talk about the book. Well, I, you know, something that is really cool about having, being in a marriage and with someone with a similar background is that we definitely have like a lot of relatable experiences different enough where you, we kind of stay in each other.

[00:10:51] lanes and just, well, I shouldn’t say we stay in each other’s lanes. We stay in our own lanes. And you know, Dustin and I do, we really focus on leaving work at work especially within our field. When you’re in the helping profession, self-care and understanding the potential for burnout is just so, so important to be effective and sustainable over time.

[00:11:12] If you wanna be in the field for. An extended amount of time. So we’re really big on that. Hey, we’re human too. And we do check each other and be like, okay, work at work. Right. So I think we do a good job of like holding each other accountable, but I would say it’s just been such a joy because we both have a similar passion and drive for.

[00:11:31] Helping others and helping communities that are in need. And I know that’s something that we find very attractive in one another. And it’s, it’s just something that really brings a lot of satisfaction to our life. So I, it’s, I would say the, the differences or the challenges are minute in comparison to just the amazing connection and relatability value system that we.

[00:11:54] Have, it’s

[00:11:55] Christine: fun to get to see the ways in which you are able to work together, and I’m sure that they’re challenges of trying to do something together as a couple, but talk about how you decided to write this book together. Yeah,

[00:12:10] Dustin: yeah. I also wanna just add Carrie, I, I love how you said that. I would just add to that as two psychologists with twin.

[00:12:17] That’s a dangerous combination, right? Because we love to, you know, assess for personality and things like that too. So twins are an interesting dynamic

[00:12:25] Christine: there. But I think hopefully

[00:12:26] Kerry: you’re picking up on Dustin’s humor. So we joke a lot that, you know, couples, sometimes it’s like, The humor is something that y’all get between each other.

[00:12:36] Maybe no one else quite understands, but it’s it’s in between each other. I, yeah, yeah. No, Dustin, we do talk about that. And obviously the, being from Minnesota, living in Minnesota, the twin studies here in Minnesota, we’re like, oh, are we gonna enroll them in the twins? Yeah. Our own little nerdy selves here.

[00:12:53] Dustin: I be, I would, I would equate my humor, our humor. Similar to like dark humor in the military, right? I mean, it, it’s a cultural. Phenomena. It’s a certain thing specific to that culture. Whether you’re in the military or you’re a spousal military, there’s, there’s, there’s acronyms that you know, that no one else knows.

[00:13:10] There’s, there’s, there’s, there’s limbo or lingo that, you know, that nobody else knows.

[00:13:14] Christine: It’s a different

[00:13:14] Dustin: language. It it really is. It really is. So, yeah, so, so how this book kind of really got launched. in some ways, by sheer luck I was, I was actually presenting at a conference and was unaware that certain folks were at this conference, were on this call.

[00:13:30] And I, and I got approached afterwards of, you know, would you be interested in, you know, maybe putting something together into an actual written form? And I was like, I, I, I, in my back of my head, I was like, well, yes, that’d be really cool. I never really thought to do that. I didn’t know I had the opportunity to do that.

[00:13:44] And I said, yes, under, under one condition, I can bring my. and I said, I said that for three reasons. One, she’s awesome and then we’ll start there. But two she’s a much better writer than I am. And three, she has a unique skillset with chronic pain. Pain in general chronic health conditions, things like that, that are very.

[00:14:03] Normal in the military and veteran population. And so it just felt like a, a natural bridge together. And we both have a background obviously with our, with our doctorates in a lot of academic writing. But this book was really created as not an academic book. We’re not trying to quote theory to you or say all these ivory tower things.

[00:14:23] It’s much more of a we just wanna have a conversation with you, like a psychologist might do. And and so that just made that so much easier writing that together with. And then getting feedback while we’re writing of like, hey, like, make this less academicy, or like, you know, put a swear word in here or do something to make it more personable.

[00:14:40] And being able to kind of have that banter the entire time was a lot of fun. So that, that’s kind of what got us into the book in that

[00:14:46] Christine: sense. So talk about who the book is targeted at and, and kind of what, what you wanted to convey, what your goal was with the book. Yeah, so our, our book

[00:14:57] Kerry: was originally, I mean, the audience.

[00:15:00] In the title itself, right, it’s a, A Veteran’s Guide to Fighting Pain and Addiction is veteran. But what we’re coming to find out as the book’s been released and ha getting feedback from readers that really, even non-veterans are getting a lot out of this book whether that’s their own processing of a veteran in their life or even just.

[00:15:22] Their own pain and experiences. They’ve been through themselves where they can relate, which I feel like is such a beautiful like bigger picture item of recognizing that non-veterans are feeling like they’re relating to veterans. And I feel like veterans need to hear that where it’s. Like, wow, okay. So other people are relating to my experience and maybe we don’t have those conversations as often that it feels like, oh, that must be such a big different experience than my pain experience I’ve been through.

[00:15:53] So yeah, originally the audience and how we write is definitely to the veteran. We use that banter that is really common. Within the veteran population, definitely a direct. Non-academic tone to draw people in to draw veterans in. But really anyone could, could read this. And really our goal for it, Christine, is to reach the veteran where they’re at and kind of help identify and understand that pain experiences are not just physical, but they might be emotional or social experiences that they’re having.

[00:16:26] You know, breakup can be painful. Mental health can be painful and sometimes coping. with substances is really common. Kind of dispelling that and naming that and really trying to give veterans just some tangible tools of here’s how we can handle this pain differently. So I think Dustin and I really, really tried to pride ourselves on actual tools to take away from the book.

[00:16:50] We didn’t want this to just be a conceptual idea where you’re reading it and you’re like, yeah, this sounds like, yeah, yeah, this sounds good, but actual, like, here now try. See if this works for you. Does it fit, does it not open up a different part of the book? Pull a tool out. And we do that through questions.

[00:17:06] We do that through actual activities and things for people to try. So yeah, I mean, I could go into other parts too. We bring in veterans stories and this was just really trying to make sure that folks are feeling seen and heard and better understood. . Well,

[00:17:22] Christine: I think it’s really important to have those practical tools you can read or listen or whatever to like, okay, this is a problem, but if you don’t have the ability to do anything about the problem, that awareness doesn’t do a whole lot for you.

[00:17:39] Dustin, I’m, I’m curious, what do you think your personal experience, how that informed the book that you were writing and why is it. So many veterans tend to think, Hey, this is just something that I struggle with. Yeah.

[00:17:55] Dustin: Yeah. That’s a, that’s, that’s well said. I think, I think my personal experience definitely played a role in the book and in the perception of the book in the, the, in the conception of the book.

[00:18:09] But not in the sense of my story. is different or unique or is like the better story or different story, but much more of a, you know, a lot of folks can probably resonate with this idea that we often unfortunately learn from pain, right? Things happen in our life that change our life, change the, the trajectory of our life.

[00:18:28] And I would argue mine is no different than that. I definitely struggled when I left the military and I struggled in various different areas of my life and it took a lot of uncharacteristic people. Things and experiences to get me out of that funk. And, and, and I, and I think that, that that’s what motivated this book that let’s, let’s not just give a book out that everyone gets, let’s not give a book out that’s just like, oh, just to make sure to like, walk every day and eat right.

[00:18:54] And everything should be fine. Like it’s not, it’s just not that kind of book. And, and so I tried to have that lens on when I was writing. And it’s kind of, it’s kinda interesting because throughout the book, we both wrote the book, but we both put our spins on how we wrote the book and, and so being able to actually have a conversation.

[00:19:13] In a, in a, in a book as an author, it’s kind of a unique thing. I mean, you, you typically, you’re writing in a much more, you know, larger tone way. And we were like, stop it. Like, like, like literally like stop moving right now. Or just something like, just like in your face kind of commentary. And that’s exactly how a lot of active duty military, especially after the military and veterans talk and where it is not this long-winded thing.

[00:19:38] It’s like, dude, what are you doing? Or, Hey, stop that. Whatever it is. And, and so this book is trying to encapsulate that I, that idea. And then, you know, to, to your second point of why veterans do this. I, I, partially, partly I think it’s cultural. I think that it’s very ingrained in the members of the military to not be the squeaky wheel, not be the thing that’s not working.

[00:19:58] You want to be just in line with the person next to you to protect them, but also to accomplish what you’re doing. And so any mentality that you’re away from that can really threaten. , your identity can threaten whether or not that you’re gonna accomplish what you’re trying to accomplish. And so that, that, that brings in the mindset of like, I’ll be okay, it’s fine.

[00:20:18] It’s not a big deal is really where that thought is coming from. And and then the other piece of this, when you go home or do you, you come back from a deployment and you feel like you’re the only one who’s struggl. , that’s a, an existential crisis, right? Without even looking up to realize that everyone’s struggling around you, you’re just not looking for it.

[00:20:38] You’re just, you’re looking at your world. And so a, a part, again, a part of this book is we want you to look up, we want you to see what’s around you, and you might be surprised at what you find. There’s probably more of a community there than there it is looking down by yourself at your show, at your shoes.

[00:20:52] You know what I mean? And the last thing I wanna say, actually, when we were talking, I actually looked this up while we were talking, of how many veterans are, are in the, in the United States right now and just like the most recent status, 16.5 million veterans, right? Which is a big number, I would imagine times that by five to 10.

[00:21:09] And that’s how many members of family are impacted? Spouses, kids, X, Y, Z. . Right? And so the weird part of this is, is sometimes the family takes on that exact same mentality that they’re taking on, right? And so that’s another added piece to

[00:21:26] Christine: think about. Yeah, for sure. I mean in, in my experience as a military spouse, been doing this for almost 15 years now, but there’s so much added stress that comes being just living the military lifestyle.

[00:21:41] And even if you’re not the one actually serving, there’s a lot of things that you were exposed to in dealing with and trying to navigate. The average person may never face. And so there’s all of this. How do we deal with all of these challenges that life are throwing at us, both from the spouse perspective and in?

[00:22:05] I’m also trying to be in relationship with this person and they’re going through their stuff. And so a lot of times we get into these coping mechanisms, and so I would love to hear you talk a little bit about. , all of us do things to help us cope, but there are healthy ways to cope and unhealthy ways to cope.

[00:22:24] So can you kind of speak to, you know, what’s unhealthy versus healthy? How do you know when you’ve crossed the boundary into something that’s not really

[00:22:33] Kerry: healthy? Yeah. You know, I, that’s such a great question and I just wanted to recognize, thank you for sharing your experience too and it’s helpful.

[00:22:43] I think for so many folks to understand that and hear that, and I’m just even reflecting on like, gosh, and there’s so much information you don’t know and you’re trying to f you know, navigate the next steps. And there, it’s just complicated, right? The, all the different aspects that go into this. So I feel like we could go down a big rabbit hole there too.

[00:23:01] I’m sure y that’s obviously why there’s this podcast, but. . Yeah. Great Question about healthy versus unhealthy coping? Right, so healthy I think is such an interesting word for us in coming from someone that has the chronic health condition. Background healthy is something that I really like to stress to my clients that it’s an individualized definition.

[00:23:28] What you feel might be healthy might be different than someone else. So cross comparisons a really, really slippery slope. And yet it’s, it’s inevitable, right? Because if we’re trying to have social support or we’re connecting with other folks that are going through a similar experience, There’s probably gonna be some comparison happening, but I, I think that it’s really important just to first start off with your definition will most likely be different regardless of something that someone says you works for you.

[00:24:01] So the idea of healthy versus unhealthy, I think let’s make this as simple as possible when something starts to become a problem and, and it’s impacting your life in a negative way. Then most likely we’re slipping down into an unhealthy coping strategy. And I say this because unhealthy way or in in a way that might be a negative could mean a lot of different things.

[00:24:28] So it doesn’t just necessarily fall right into you’re using substances and kind of the picturesque. Our book talks about addiction, obviously. But this could be something that as simple as it impacts a friend, it impacts a family member. I’m even thinking about an interesting, unhealthy, slippery slope.

[00:24:47] Folks that are really involved in exercise. Sometimes it becomes way into an unhealthy zone of exercising, whereas we know exercising is a positive thing for a lot of people. So I think. understand when something becomes negative for you and has an impact on the people around you. So Dustin, would you add anything to that?

[00:25:12] I, it’s, I wanna keep it general. Yeah. Because it’s, it people could attack to this so differently.

[00:25:18] Dustin: Right? Right. I would, I would say too and this is kind of a, it’s an interesting statement I’m about to make, but I would argue most coping skills initially would have the intent of being healthy or. Of short lived, right?

[00:25:31] So we might start out with walking once a week or once every couple days, and it’s not a big deal, but you walk every single day for the rest of your life. You might have injury, right? You have to take some breaks, or you end up walking 18 miles a day. Well, that, that feels. , that, that sounds awesome. And that, that feels like you’re, you’re gonna buy a lot of shoes and b, you’re probably gonna have some shin splints or something.

[00:25:55] Right. So there’s a reason why even in the military, they take some breaks in some of the things they’re doing. It’s not all the time, constantly. So that’s one thing I would say to that. So anything can start out healthy and turn unhealthy. I would also say it, it’s about instant grad. , right? Some coping skills immediately give you the gratification, the relief of, okay, I’m fine again.

[00:26:15] I’m okay. Right? And some folks are chasing that feeling regardless of healthy or unhealthy. The third thing I would say is there’s a difference between proactive coping and reactive coping, right? So reactive coping is you’re sick, you take a pill, you have a headache, you take a pill, you’re hungry, you eat, you react to some, some sort, some sort of stimulus or a reaction that you’re having and you cope with.

[00:26:38] What we don’t do a good job is, is I would argue humans be human beings. And especially in some ways veterans, because we often don’t have time to do it, is we are proactive in our coping. We cope before the problem starts, right? And so a lot of, a lot of movement that’s happened with. For example, reintegration techniques with people coming home from deployment even, they’re proactively putting things in place of Let’s talk finances.

[00:27:00] Let’s talk about how you’re gonna reintegrate back into the home with the other parents, and your kid’s gonna be like, so you didn’t have any rules or rules in here, and all of a sudden you do, right? All these things we can proactively talk about before you get there. . Right? And not everyone wants to do that.

[00:27:14] Some folks say, we’ll just wing it. It’ll be fine. It’s not fine. It doesn’t go so hot. And, and so I think that’s something to think about. How do we, how can we practice proactive coping is a really cool strategy that not a lot of folks talk about.

[00:27:26] Christine: I mean, I think it’s important. I remember the, the first time my husband, we were, I think still dating at the time, his first deployment and.

[00:27:35] You know, I had no idea that there was like a whole reintegration thing. I expected him to come home and just be the way things had always been, and it was not like that. And, and so yeah, it’s very important to have those conversations ahead of time to have a plan and to realize that it is a season that you go through.

[00:27:58] So, yeah, I totally. With that, I would love for you to unpack this idea of trauma a little bit for our audience, because I feel like it’s this word that gets thrown around a lot but we don’t necessarily have a really good definition of what trauma is and how it impacts day-to-day

[00:28:23] Kerry: life. I love this, Christine.

[00:28:25] You’re going for the heavy hitters, healthy, unhealthy coping trauma. Awesome. Awesome.

[00:28:30] Christine: I mean, I feel like let’s, let’s get to like, these are the issues, these are the questions that people really have.

[00:28:35] Kerry: Yes, absolutely. First of all, I think one thing that I loved as we were reflecting through the importance of trauma for this community, but.

[00:28:48] I think one thing that I will 100% take away is a huge part of Dustin and i’s reflection as we are writing this book. Just because you were in the military doesn’t mean that you experienced trauma, so it’s, and. . And I think that’s a, a part of, sometimes there’s this automatic assumption that all veterans have had trauma, a lot of veterans have had trauma for sure.

[00:29:13] So we wanna make sure that we recognize that and understand that. But that’s one thing that I was very, very important, that we’re not making the assumption that someone has experienced trauma just because they have a certain identity. Trauma at its purest form. Right. And I am definitely the more neurobio approach.

[00:29:33] So if you see any of that in our book, that’s, that’s me. I love it. It’s when the body responds to stimulus in a way that is, is fearful and frightening. So when we talk about trauma, a lot of times people come to mind and they, they do, they think about veterans that have been in combat and they think of P T S D and trauma is, is that, and that is not the full picture of trauma.

[00:30:00] Trauma can be something as small as, and I shouldn’t even say small, but an experience that someone has that is traumatizing. It can be a car accident, it can be a. An altercation. It, there’s so many different types of traumas that people go through and it’s really what, why we need to get away from events or the identification of trauma.

[00:30:28] It truly is a biological response. It’s how your body is sending off those signals, and it’s in that, if you’ve heard before, the fight, flight, or freeze mode it’s something people don’t choose. So you don’t tell your body, Hey, Go into flight mode. Go into flight mode. Nope. It it, your body, it’s almost like.

[00:30:49] emergency system that turns on, you have no control of that when it does it because it’s going through a traumatic experience. It’s, it’s surviving in the moment. So that’s, that’s something that I, I like to make sure that folks understand is trauma is a biological response and we shouldn’t necessarily identify trauma based on, on an event.

[00:31:10] An event is important. Kind of, there’s obviously a trigger that’s having the body experience that but we have to bring the picture out a little bit more of understanding that it encapsulates a lot of different experiences and

[00:31:27] Christine: interesting to note that you can go through negative experiences, but not specifically have your body react in a traumatic.

[00:31:37] Dustin: Right, right. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I would also just add to that, that sometimes trauma, even if it’s not something that’s been lived through, it could be perceived or threat of, or the threat of what could happen, and that, that creates a really interesting window for people of even when they come home.

[00:31:57] there’s still a threat, right? Or the body is not switched over to no longer feeling like somebody’s in danger anymore. And that that can impact not only active duty military, it can impact spouses, kids, they’re all gonna react a little bit differently to that, right? Another thing we talk about in our book is ACEs and how childhood trauma can play a role in our reaction perception of trauma.

[00:32:20] Resiliency factors that play into that. And, and so that, that, that’s also this is another interesting kind of layer to that of how previous trauma might play a role in existing trauma or even future anticipated trauma things of that nature. But I, I, I, I fully agree with Carrie. I think that trauma is also in the eye of the beholder, right?

[00:32:39] So for one person, it’s not traumatic at all. And I can think of a few examples, for example, For, for examples, for example I remember one of my first times down range where we had had some, some gunfire happening around us, and it was my first time really hearing that in, in the zone. And so I was very buttoned up.

[00:33:00] I was very worried and concerned, and I had one of my sergeants, and this was his third deployment. He was, he was still eating his soup and, and I think he was smoking a cigarette and. Nothing, it didn’t matter to him. And I was, I was just like, you’re gonna leave me into this. And I, and you’re not scared, like this is concerning.

[00:33:16] Right. Now if I were to ask him his first time there, I don’t know if he would’ve reacted that way. Right. And so that, that’s an interesting thing. When you think of kids who have experienced multiple deployments, they react differently. Every single deployment, it’s not the same reaction. , and if it is, then they’re almost maybe even getting lost in previous strategies they use to survive that threatening event when mom or dad left.

[00:33:37] And so it’s just, it is, there’s so many ways to unpack that.

[00:33:41] Christine: For sure. So

[00:33:43] Kerry: let’s talk

[00:33:44] Christine: a little bit about when either we are struggling ourselves and some strategies that you would recommend of, hey, you’ve been through a lot, and, and how to we, we began to deal with what’s going on and figure out, oh, a pathway forward.

[00:34:02] And then let’s talk about what about if you notice that your partner is struggling and how can you support them and help them get the help that they need?

[00:34:14] Kerry: Struggling yourself and trying to make. and think about your next steps of, of getting support is it’s, it’s tough. It’s so tough. It’s, first of all, I, I think a lot of us have a hard time recognizing when that happens, that a lot of times we’re already way past that point and we’re like, oh.

[00:34:34] I might be stressed, right? Like I’ve worked with folks that I’ll be like, oh, how do you know you’re anxious or stressed? And they’ll be like, well, you know, my hair falls out. And they’ll be, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. We, there was probably some steps prior to the hair falling out. The hair falling out was definitely mean, anxiety, and we’ve got some things to work on for sure.

[00:34:51] But there was probably steps before that. So I think this is one thing. Can be really difficult for us is bringing awareness to ourselves, reflecting on what are my, you know, red flags, signals, symptoms, whatever you wanna call it, that you’re tuned into and recognizing what do I do with that once I see it?

[00:35:12] Right? And I think that’s what your question, question is, Christine, like, what do you do when you recognize that? And everyone’s different? And I, I think one thing. might be the first step for all of us is not to shame ourselves that we’re in a position where we need help or support from ourselves or others.

[00:35:29] Being patient with that, that maybe even trying one thing to feel better might not necessarily make us feel better. . And recognizing that sometimes it takes many things. It takes time, it takes space, it takes multiple coping strategies. So those are really very key things, you know, not. Judging yourself if you need support or, or help.

[00:35:54] And also just giving yourself that space to do that. I recognize for a lot of the folks I work with is you have to do what works for you. So I’m big in mind body. What, how, how do we actually achieve relaxation? Self-care is we have to connect both the mind and body. If your body is not relaxed, but your, your mind is, then you know, you could.

[00:36:19] be doing something and exerting a lot of energy in your mind, but you maybe aren’t feeling as relaxed and vice versa. If you’re doing something relaxing, you’re on the beach somewhere, but your brain isn’t shutting off, then you’re not. Achieving relaxation. So you really wanna think about that mind body connection.

[00:36:37] How, what activities, what are the things that get both of these things connected? They’re both feeling relaxed and I’ll tell you that can be so different for people. I have runners that like love that. And I know people, myself included, if I were to get out and run, I’d be so stressed out. I’d be like, , no.

[00:36:57] Get me off this road. Recognizing again, that individualized coping strategy. Checking in with yourself, how is my mind relaxed right now? How is my body relaxed? Is one relaxed and the other one isn’t? Maybe I need to shift what I’m doing right now. Those are all things I would consider at the individual level, and maybe Dustin, you can speak to the.

[00:37:20] the spouse or if you have anything else to add too.

[00:37:23] Christine: Yeah,

[00:37:23] Dustin: yeah. No, I, I, I fully agree. If anything, I, I think in a lot of ways when somebody’s not doing okay, one of the first steps is recognizing that that means that your body’s still has the ability to tell you something’s wrong. Right. And that’s such an important thing to be like, Hey, you’re still, you’re still in there and something’s trying, trying to let you know we gotta do something here.

[00:37:42] Right? And then you get into that old mindset of, I’m the only one that something’s wrong. I should be fine or just keep going or I don’t have time cuz the kid’s gotta be here and I gotta go over here and I gotta go to groceries and there’s no time for it. And so I think one of the simplest ways to look at things to do is a take time for yourself and not, not as like a punching board or like a bullet point that you ought to do it, but actually finding a way to do that.

[00:38:06] And that could be 20 minutes in, in the bathroom, you know, listening to slip, nod. I don’t care what it is. Right. I’d much rather you find what actually to, to carrie’s point that works for you. you enjoy doing. And the weird part is the more you do something and initially you might feel really guilty about it, but if you do more of it eventually that guilt does come down.

[00:38:25] It does dissipate. If you continue in that, that kind of intentional practice, you know, I obviously talked to people, talked to others that have been there, talked to others that are going through it to feel that sense of validation, normalization, those are all important things as well. I think your other question around what to do when your spouse is struggling, whether that is.

[00:38:42] your, your military spouse or vice versa? I think, I think in a lot of ways, this is kind of an interesting answer, and, and you, you kind of sparked something in me when you, when you asked it, is in the military, a lot of times you, you don’t know why, right? When you get an order, you don’t, you don’t get the why.

[00:38:59] You don’t get to know. There’s not choices of where to send your kids to school. There’s a school on the base. I mean, it’s just like boo boop, that’s it. Right? And in this situation, asking why can have a good and a bad effect, right? If you ask, why are you struggling, you’re shaming, right? But if you don’t do anything at all, that can be just as hurtful.

[00:39:19] And so finding a way, a language we said earlier, finding a language to talk to your spouse, which might include like, I’m, I’m hearing you right now. You’re not in the space to talk. Cool. Like, let’s do our thing. But there’s also a level of, we gotta find some way to understand each. . One of the coolest things that Carrie and I do, and this is actually more on a clinical basis as a psychologist, is when we’re at targe or target for anyone who’s not French you, we have code words.

[00:39:47] If I see a patient that I know, I will say a code word to her and she will know to drop what she’s doing and to walk out, or we just are mindful of that and we keep going. So in the event that somebody comes up to me, I can’t acknowledge who they are. I can’t explain to her who they are, nothing like that.

[00:40:02] Right. But she’s been. Veterans love code words, right? So maybe you develop a code word when you’re at that family barbecue and your spouse is freaking out with anxiety and then, then they say the word squirrel, you know? . All right, kids, we gotta go not feeling great. And then you go and they’re gonna feel so heard and respected because you were on the same plane, right?

[00:40:27] You’re talking to one another. And that’s just one example of kind of how to reach out and help one another out is being able to be that

[00:40:33] Christine: support system.

[00:40:34] Kerry: And I feel like the underlying topic or, or content there is what do you need, right? Like, I think sometimes we think we as, as spouses, like we feel like we have to like know what the other person.

[00:40:49] and like that’s a part of apparently being in a relationship like you’re just supposed to know. And it’s like, wait a minute. How are you supposed to know? No, you know? And so asking what do you need? And really respecting that for each other and recognizing that sometimes the other person might also not know what they need, so they might say back to you, I don’t know.

[00:41:11] and recognizing and being able to say, okay, well I’m here if you, if you need anything, if there’s anything I can support you with, know that I want to help you with what you need. So I think that’s a huge part of this too, is recognizing that even just letting that, giving that space or letting that handout respecting each other’s needs and wants and is a huge, huge benefit when you’re dealing with struggles.

[00:41:39] Well, and I think

[00:41:39] Christine: you know what you talked about, about saying, Hey, what do you need? I think as the active duty person, they spend so much of their time, what can I talk about? What can’t I talk about? All the things they’re, they get so used to keeping things to themselves and internalizing what’s going on.

[00:41:58] That I think there is that valid idea of, well, I don’t really know what I need and I’m not inclined to just. Telling you about it. So to go and say, Hey, I noticed this is going on. Can I support you? How can I talk to you? Just asking those questions can be a big benefit. Yeah.

[00:42:22] Kerry: Yeah. It’s so true.

[00:42:23] Christine. And I love the spirit I’m getting from you, which is one that I, I talk about with a lot of people is curiosity, like genuine curiosity for care, right? Like when we are coming from that place of curiosity, and I’m wondering about this, I, I care about you. . It goes a long way and really just helps the other person not feel judged when they, they are struggling.

[00:42:47] So I love that.

[00:42:49] Christine: Yeah. As we wrap up today, cuz I, I wanna be mindful of everyone’s time, but is there anything that is on your heart right now that you would like to say to the military spouse of people who are active duty and their spouses and, and what would you like to say to them? Well,

[00:43:08] Kerry: I would like to say, , you are literally a superhero.

[00:43:13] And I think that. More credit should be given to you as well. And there are so many things that you go through that individuals it, it’s hard to even fully comprehend and know that you are valued. Know that you are important. Know that obviously Christine is a huge platform trying to show you that you are important, but even when sometimes things aren’t said to you, just know that that’s a part of being a military spouse and.

[00:43:45] You should be honored as well, and I honor you. Dustin honors you and we are so privileged to have spouses of folks that are going through this and take care of

[00:43:56] Christine: yourself cuz you deserve that as well. I love that, Dustin. Thoughts.

[00:44:02] Dustin: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think not only are, are you the, the unspoken heroes, your kids are the unspoken heroes just as much as you are.

[00:44:09] Your, your support systems are also your heroes as well. And I think, I think in a lot of ways too that you know, when I was in the military, the last thing I thought about was who was packing? Myres or who is, you know, getting the pallet ready for all the water. Who sewed my, my underwear, you know, 18 months ago, whatever it was.

[00:44:28] I mean, who knows, right? You, you don’t think about that stuff, but we still depend on those things, right? And so you’re still dependable, you’re still dependent on, and, and just to carrie’s point, like it may not always be voice, but that doesn’t mean. It’s not present in someone’s mind and heart. So I think that’s important.

[00:44:44] And I think too that, you know, whether you are a military spouse, whether you are a member of the military family or you’re a military member yourself I encourage you to take a chance on a book. I encourage you to take a, to open it up and we, we do try to build it in a way that if you can only read one page and put it down and that page be the next year of reflection, awesome.

[00:45:03] Do. , right? There’s no reason to, to bulldoze over that. So life’s important and cherished and so we just appreciate this time today.

[00:45:10] Christine: Well, thank you so much for those words. Let everybody know where can they find the book and how can they connect with you guys. . So our book can be

[00:45:20] Kerry: found pretty much everywhere.

[00:45:22] Amazon, Barnes and Noble, target online. You can Google it and find lots of different places. Of course, Hazelden Publishing is our publishing company, so if you’re looking for like a larger amount they can do a deal for you. To find us, you can actually, we have a website, doctors braford.com, d r.

[00:45:40] Broberg and then we have a Facebook page and an Instagram account as well, all doctors Broberg. So yeah, please feel free to connect with us and we just are so lucky that we got to talk with you today, Christine. So thanks again.

[00:45:55] Christine: Perfect. I will link all of those in the show notes below. Thank you guys for coming on here.

[00:46:01] I know that this is gonna mean a lot to so many of my listeners, so thanks for coming on today. Absolutely. Thanks. Thanks so much. All right, friends. I know we talked about a lot of topics in today’s conversation, but I think these conversations are really important because mental health is so important and because the struggle.

[00:46:22] To deal with the difficult parts of military life is real and sometimes we don’t know where a safe place to turn for help and support is. But the biggest thing that I want you to take away from this conversation today is that support. and help is available. Nobody has to stay stuck, and the worst thing that we can do, that you can do that your partner can do is to pretend like everything’s okay.

[00:46:55] And to suffer in silence. There are resources and people willing to help. Resources like this book End Your Covert Mission, a Veteran’s Guide to Fighting, pain and Addiction. These resources, whether it’s reading the book and just starting by taking the guided action steps and then discussing it with someone.

[00:47:19] Or actually reaching out to talk to someone who can help, that these resources are available and they can lead you to a much healthier and happier life. They can lead you to a more fulfilling marriage and to having a sense of joy and fulfillment in the life that you have. You are never alone. There is always someone willing to help you or your partner.

[00:47:48] Talk to a friend, talk to a chaplain, grab a book. Just do something and don’t suffer in silence. I am absolutely not a licensed counselor, but I am always happy to listen and to help connect you with resources. Okay, my friends, as we wrap up today, if you have not already left a show review on Apple iTunes, then I would love, love, love for you to do that as we celebrate two full years of the MilSpouse Mastermind show.

[00:48:25] I will see you back here next week until, May you live filled, fueled, and full of joy.